Sometimes I wonder whether trans men writing about transmisogyny and trans-man-douchebaggery and how much is sucks is the new spoken word poetry. Every time I’ve written anything about how trans dude culture can get pretty gross in the way it appropriates the experiences and oppression of trans women, I have gotten tons of great feedback and had so many people tell me I was so smart and sensitive. I don’t know, I’d love to think that is all true because being smart and sensitive are both things that are important to me in life but at the same time, I have to acknowledge that every time I’ve written something like that, someone has pointed out that I hadn’t written anything that any trans woman had not been saying (and having quickly ignored or dismissed by queer and so-called-trans communities) over and over again for years. But that suddenly, when it comes from a trans man, someone gives him (me) a fucking medal and he gets hella laid for it. (For the record, I live in Detroit where no one gets laid for anything, but I’m sure it’s contributed to my getting laid a fair amount of times over the years nevertheless.)
So I want to set the record straight a little. My contempt for trans-man-douchebaggery and the whole culture that supports it is a sincere and driving force and among the most precious values in my life. It’s something I think about a lot and it’s something that influences my judgement of character when it comes to friends, lovers and heroes more than most factors. But it’s definitely not something I just came up with on my own! It’s something I’ve learned from the badass trans women who have been my mentors, peers, lovers, role models, crushes and best friends throughout my entire adult life and I’m actually pretty sure that without them, I would have ended up just another *aydyn doing bad spoken word poetry at the Trans Day of Remembrance and aspiring to be on the cover of Original Plumbing.
I started transitioning 8 years ago, back when trans dude culture was still feeling pretty antsy about an overall sense of invisibility within larger culture. That was way before Chaz Bono and before Daniela Sea played a trans man on The L Word (ugh)—back when people would have thought that the idea of having a trans man on The L Word was this totally radical thing and just eat it up. Trans dudes felt invisible, but also felt oppressed in this way that was kinda hard to define because the people who oppressed us didn’t really even know what a trans man was and usually lumped us in with fags or dykes when choosing insults. Trans guys wanted to be visible, so they started writing embarrassingly personal essays and presenting them as scholarly articles and publicly presenting trans women’s (usually trans women of color sex workers’) stories as trans people’s stories in kind of exploitative performances they called spoken word poetry. I think it came from this need to feel visible as a distinct oppressed group by the larger queer community, and to that end, it totally worked. Every time a trans man opened his mouth or picked up his pen, he was praised as being brave and revolutionary and it became this thing that everyone wanted to fuck a trans guy (any trans guy!) Within a few years, trans guys were not invisible and as far as the currency of getting laid in queer communities goes, we had a ton of privilege. But we basically didn’t stop doing those obnoxious things we did a few years earlier in a desperate need to be noticed and for the most part, queer communities have never really stopped eating it up.
When I first came out as trans, I realized pretty early on the danger of becoming a misogynistic douchebag, but I also longed for the company of any other trans person. Shortly after beginning transition, I went to Camp Trans and was excited to be around a lot of other trans people irl for one of the first times in my life. I quickly found my awkward early stage in transition and being fat made the trans bro elite reluctant to accept me, but my resolve to learn to resist being a douchebag (even when I wasn’t that great at recognizing what that meant) put me completely on the outside of being part of the cliquey group of trans men that dominated Camp Trans at that point. Instead, I found what we used to call Camp Awkward—back before awkward was the new sexy—and a few smart badass trans women and other CAMAB trans people and that was the first time I really found somewhere I wanted to belong.
Over the years, that small group of friends who initially saw something in me that they liked and wanted around when no one else would grew into a much larger group of mostly trans women who challenged me and were patient with me and would go to trans events with me and sit in a corner complaining about all the douchey trans men everywhere. Back when I still thought it was okay to “reclaim” the word “tranny” as a trans man, it was one of these women who was patient enough to have it out with me about it until I figured out that I probably shouldn’t say it anymore and should probably join her in lovingly but firmly challenging other trans guys’ use of the term. It was a few of these women who called bullshit and lovingly supported me when a group of trans guys at Camp Trans totally humiliated a close friend and I when they told us we “weren’t on the list” for this trans guy only make-out party they had just invited us to (not sure why we wanted to go to that party in the first place, but live and learn). I’m not sure why they decided I was the trans guy they kinda liked, but these badass women were (and still are) the people I loved and respected and wanted to be and wanted to know and they were the friends and lovers and biggest crushes and heroes who made me into the person I am.
I have never had trouble taking a stand against transmisogyny and other trans-man-douchebaggery, but maybe that’s because my general trans misandry runs pretty deep and it’s been a long time since I had any stake in what most trans bros thought of me. At this point, I’ve found that if I ever venture into trans man only space (something I generally avoid), I can yell as loudly as I’d like against transmisogyny and no one will listen because I am quickly labelled as an outsider, but the second anyone is watching, the trans bros will start eating up whatever I say in a way that they would not if it were coming from anyone other than another trans man. There is some sort of social pressure to oppose transmisogyny that kicks in as soon as the larger queer community is watching and suddenly my voice is seen as really important in those spaces, even though I’m not saying anything differently than what my trans women friends and heroes have been saying for years and what I’ve tried to say privately in trans man only space for years.
Recently, I’ve started to notice a few other trans guys getting attention for writing or speaking about transmisogyny amongst trans guys and general trans-man-douchebaggery and being treated like we are saying something completely new and revolutionary when we say it. I just think it’s important to talk about the fact that we are not. I think it’s amazing that this stuff has seemed like it’s getting more attention lately because it’s so important to talk about. I’m also really happy that, if I’m going to use my privilege as a trans man for something, getting people to talk about transmisogyny and trans-man-douchebaggery is the thing that I can use it for. But it’s still indicative of a huge problem in our community when folx will listen to this stuff coming from a white, college educated, twenty-something trans man ally to trans women, but it is still largely dismissed when it comes from the trans women who experience transmisogyny every day in a way that I never will, and when the community does stop for a second to pay attention to trans women saying this stuff, it is generally those trans women who share similar race, class, age and other privileges as me.
This is why I sometimes wonder whether writing about trans misogyny and trans-man-douchebaggery is the new spoken word poetry amongst trans guys and whether those of us who do it are the new *aydyns. That’s never been the reason I’ve written stuff like this, but I feel like I often get a similar reception as early 2000’s trans guys doing spoken word. I don’t think I could ever stop talking about this stuff because it will never stop being important to me and feeling like the right thing to do as long as queer communities are ripe with transmisogyny that they will only think this stuff is important if it comes from a trans man. But I still think that’s messed up and important to point out.
So I want to use my privilege as a trans man right now to encourage people reading this to listen to trans women when they say all this important stuff that you all eat right up when it comes from a trans guy. I want to encourage queer folx to search ourselves and examine why we do this. I want to encourage our queer communities to create space for dialogue about whose voices we privilege or exclude and how we can change this. And if you don’t think you do this, humour me and search yourself a little anyway because you have probably done this at some point—if not to trans women, then to someone else in your community. And to my fellow trans man proponents of “the new spoken word”, my fellow “new *aydyns,” don’t forget to give credit to the badass trans women you learned it all from—cause I know you didn’t just think all this up on your own!
{ 217 comments… read them below or add one }
Jack, you are so lovely I can hardly stand it. <3
~M
<3 aw, you make me blush
LOL! This is so meta.
I’m amused that several people thumbs-downed our mutual <3fest.
~M
ikr? i mean, it is kinda funny considering what the article is about and the fact that it’s the first comment thread
“I want to encourage our queer communities to create space for dialogue about whose voices we privilege or exclude and how we can change this.”
Here’s a space. What do all the people reading this right now (especially those of you who tend to feel like you’re not heard) think our communities should do to actively address changing this? Does anybody have any good tactics they’d like to share?
I didn’t really know what this comment section was for but thanks for the idea to have a discussion! I hope people chime right in! Let’s watch it unfold, shall we?
The comments section: not just for flame wars anymore. New at PrettyQueer!
Thank you for redirecting the praise to those who began the conversation before you and who are the heroines of this article. I think a fantastic addition would be a collection of links to trans women on the web: their blogs, published articles, twitter pages, etc, so their words that inspire can be read at the source!
That’s a fantastic idea! Let’s make a list–what are people’s favourite blogs (& zines and other publications) by badass trans women? There are a lot of really rad trans women who write for PrettyQueer (and a lot of the personal heroes & friends I mention in the article) and folx should check out their stuff if you haven’t already, but it’s super important to pay attention to trans women all over. So who do folx follow?
Imogen. Duh.
Imogen Imogen Imogen.
…Tells me what to read.
I also follow my GF’s blog, but it might only be interesting to other 80s noise rock nerds and philosophy + programmer types. http://eyesplinters.wordpress.com/
Experimental musician Amy Mills http://undevelopedpiles.bandcamp.com/
Come to think of it, most of the trans women I know who have an online presence AREN’T writing about transmisogyny very often, mostly their art and what they are reading. I wish I had more to offer this list.
Imogen reads like 20 books a day (I gather from following her Goodreads and referencing her reviews whenever I’m deciding what to read next) and is super smart (I know this first hand, I don’t just gather it) so “Imogen… Tells me what to read” is kind of a real thing. Her writing is also really badass–she writes on here, but also has a blog (which her name links to above).
Morgan M. Page who writes for PrettyQueer is another super smart badass whose stuff folx should read if you have not already here is a recent article that says a lot of (really dead on) great stuff about her writing as well as some other rad trans women who did good stuff in the past year. If you can get your hands on a copy of Brazen: The Trans Women’s Safer Sex Guide that she put out a few months ago, I would recommend that as well because it’s great, but it’s also super hard to come by right now.
Cisnormativity, the blog who wrote the article linked above, is also a good blog to follow. I think their contributors are a mix of CAMAB and CAFAB trans folx, but from what I can tell, it’s mostly trans women on there.
Anyone who does not follow Red Durkin’s youtube channel should. She’s the Managing Editor of PrettyQueer so y’all already know she’s brilliant, but she’s also probably the funniest person ever. Her videos are super smart and thought provoking and also super funny.
Savannah Garmon’s blog is really good.
Heidi Barton Stink is also a total badass. She’s mostly a musician, but she also wrote a really awesome overview of really awesome overview of CeCe McDonald’s incarceration/prosecution and has been pretty involved with stuff going on with CeCe’s case.
Also, anyone not following what is going on with CeCe McDonald should be because it’s really important–if you don’t know what I’m talking about, read the articles linked, but basically it’s a really horrible case of the criminal (in)justice system supporting and upholding some really scary racism and transphobia– and a lot of people in our communities have been doing some great work surrounding her case too. You can read CeCe’s own words in a recent interview she did with PrettyQueer.
Um… this is a really incomplete list and kind of slanted towards people I am friends with or who run in similar circles as me or just people whose stuff I’m really into following right this second. Similar to what Kelsey said above, a lot of the rad trans women I follow are doing rad stuff that isn’t necessarily just about being trans and experiencing transmisogyny.
Your shout-out is really appreciated!
We hope to be posting some good stuff (by great people) soon.
Haha aw thanks y’all although I should be clear that 90% of the smart things I say are just recontextualized things that feminist/womanist/radical women of color have said where I could see them, and the other 10% are mean-spirited fake interviews. So… bell hooks, Cherríe Moraga, This Bridge Called My Back and everything related to it, the Crunk Feminist Collective, The Revolution Starts at Home and everything related to it, INCITE!- and a million geniuses in Oakland- and Audre Lorde deserve a lot more credit than I do.
list of some zines by trans women (i’m currently running a trans woman zine distro called bitch please… no website yet)
the empire strikes back
every body is a modified body
from cross to trans
fucking trans women
gendercide
gender trash from hell
go fuck yourself
my tender gender all mixed up in a blender
the transgender herb garden
unapologetic: the journal of irresponsible gender
tough shit
comics by joey alison sayers at http://jsayers.com/
http://trannypunk.com/
Cool! How do we order zines?
Pony, can we get the through your distro that’s listed on the tumblr linked to your name?
At the moment I’m just doing stalls but in the next month or so I hope I’ll have a website.
Please keep us all updated about when they’ll be available to order! My roommate & I would like to get some for our zine collection.
http://quinnae.wordpress.com
You have it right Jack, while sometimes it’s great to have allies speak up for us, it can just perpetuate the problem of trans misogyny if we only listen to men speak about women’s issues.
I do thank the trans men that speak up when we are shut out, silenced, and ignored, but there comes a time rather than standing up and giving a opinion or rewording someone else’s thoughts, it’s time to point to those trans women that have no voice and say, “listen to them, not me, and not the sound of your own voice.”
It’s a problem on a massive scale especially in the queer community, it’s othering, isolating, and oppressive to the most vulnerable group in the community.
So I guess what I’m saying in my ramble here, is thanks for, rather than talk about what you see the problem is, just telling people to listen to trans women. For that, I thank you.
Jack, this is a deeply provocative piece, much as your last on the *aydyns, and I’m glad you’re speaking up to this (because CAFAB trans people will at least listen to you, even if begrudgingly). If a trans woman’s name were making this byline, you’d be laughed right out of the CAFAB house. It’s reprehensible that it takes a[n] (elevated) man to speak up for (diminished) women for other (elevated) men to hear what’s systematically happening to the fading, silly trans woman who gets “uppity”. What’s worse is when CAFAB women will listen to CAFAB men long before listening to the first-person narratives of other women (who may just have been CAMAB).
We witnessed this fairly recently when it took the collective wherewithal of a few good trans men to voluntarily stand up to a couple of other, semi-popular trans guys who were using the bully pulpit of their name brands to dismiss trans women for calling them out on saying some pretty offensive, trans misogynist stuff (see Lucas Silveira and Buck Angel and use of the reviled T-word). That experience alone revealed to me that there are new grains of golden wheat emerging from a pile of growing chaff.
To confront this is to swat at a hornet’s nest, but this is how law prof extraordinaire Dean Spade still appropriates and erases the specific realities of trans women in his lecture talks, including on his current book tour. I didn’t want to get into this until I read the above bit, which reminded me of Spade’s modus operandi and reminded me how he has wilfully used trans misogyny to regularly further his own career ends.
In Spade’s voice, it’s trans people who are incarcerated, raped, and abused behind bars (when he knows that virtually all, if not very close to all trans incarcerations involve trans women — and at that, trans women of colour, whose life chances are negligible relative to his own). He has used vulnerable trans women to advance his own projects of social justice (as he sees it) and gets really agitated whenever a trans woman questions how his motives might place her at severely greater risk for her security and privacy at the cost of greater institutional and social harm. He’ll advocate for vulnerable others to “take one for the team” — just so long as he’s the head coach.
If you only heard Spade speak, trans people are oppressed, but he makes no distinction on how trans people are differentially oppressed and harmed — speaking this before a room of 40 CAFAB trans people; 65 cis people (CAFAB mostly, but a few CAMAB radical activists); maybe three very opaque CAMAB women; and at least one or two very transparent CAMAB women who get placed by others as either cis women or as CAFAB genderqueer. Most of those CAFAB trans people were fawning over him like a rock star version of a younger, cuter, more shaggable version of John Houseman. And yet, the phrase “trans woman” never left his mouth during the moments when he was at the lectern, discussing none other than the violent barriers facing the criminalization and incarceration of trans women.
There are even racialized intersections to his brand of erasure which he will exploit for eliciting more sympathy from his audience. In the end, they walk away from his talk with the idea that the most marginal of trans women are beyond help, except to implicitly throw them scraps of recognition at “queer radical lectures” to argue that all trans people have it — ::hands held this far apart:: — this bad. Cue the after-parties of him getting laid (or at least propositioned).
These seem to only touch upon a continuing narrative of institutional and situational erasure of CAMAB trans experiences on his behalf. People who admire him can and do follow his lead. This isn’t where his erasure ends.
Very much so. I can afford to speak only because I have some of the education now (this is pretty recent, all put together long after I transitioned), and I can get placed as white in the context of a diverse spread of people (whereas in WASPy spaces, I stand out a little). This education also affords the discursive framework to engage someone like Spade on his terms. It shouldn’t ever have to come to that.
It may sound like niggling, but Spade similarly minimizes, even eliminates mention of his education being earned at a women’s college (Barnard) by mentioning only instead the university with which that college is affiliated (Columbia). This happened as recently as the introduction bio given just before he spoke at a recent talk promoting his new book. I’m all, “Hey wait. I see what you did there.”
Spade, like many of us who are trans, is poignantly aware of how a few U.S. women’s colleges bar known CAMAB women from admission (known only because of age 18 compulsory registry with the U.S. Selective Service System for every “man”, branding every CAMAB American applicant who would apply for government financial aid), but still permit trans men to be enrolled. He never speaks of this institutionally differential exclusion of young trans women being barred from higher education admission, because it served his ends very well.
He is, however, eager to talk about trans people being shuffled into the correctional system. This means that the only trans women who arrive to admissions at a women’s college are ones whose paperwork show no hint of their body or institutional placement being CAMAB — which basically means being transitioned before age 18.
The problem with a Spade in the ranks is not the position in which he finds himself today. His position as a law prof is laudable, and it should inspire others to reach for the stars in their own life goals.
Rather, it’s in the way Spade, a CAFAB trans person in his position, is re-writing a sanitized narrative whereby CAMAB women are insignificant; are to do his bidding; and who aren’t valid as people or as political voices unless they are afforded a privilege of living openly like he does — or risk their safety being forced to try. By doing this, he erases the real dangers facing high-profile women relative to high-profile men generally, and then makes this worse by erasing how CAMAB women are also the most reviled kind of woman to exist within a cisnormative context. “I demand you to take one for my team, ladies?”
As a consequence, Spade would be more comfortable with putting CAMAB women in very real jeopardy and in harm’s way than advocating for them by asking them the unqualified question: “What’s going on, how can I listen, and how can I be of help for you on the terms which are most important to you right now?”
For now, though, Spade is an unassailable rock star, and it’s going to take a lot of CAFAB guys to stand up to him and ask him the tough questions which he won’t answer when CAMAB women try.
thanks for sharing all this–i have never really paid much attention to dean spade or known much about him. i’d never heard anything negative about him, but i always hear people drooling over him and it generally tends to rub me the wrong way whenever i hear queer/trans folx drooling over yet another youngish white trans man so i kind of just tune out when that starts to happen, so i’ve really never heard anything of substance about him at all. i wish i could say i was surprised to hear all the stuff you said about him, but it sucks that so many trans guys are so predictably self-congratulatory in their appropriation of trans women’s experiences.
also, your identity is something of a mystery to me (maybe this is intentional) i <3 every single comment you ever make on here–do i know you irl (cause if i don't, i wish i did)? you are super smart and insightful, i basically just wanna read more stuff you write all the time
I’m all but certain we’ve never met, but it would be great to some day! If you wish to subject yourself to more of my tl;dr, you’re welcome to click on my name.
of course i clicked the link on your first comment to this post, since i’ve always thought you were super smart and checked for stuff your name might link to pretty much every time you post anything here and never found anything and was excited to see something–which narrows you down to one of 8 people, at least one of whom i am certain you are not because i kinda know them. i do appreciate the mystery, though
(also, i totally read your blog and <3 it)
As more an idea and less a person, I like to keep things in flux.
(and thank you!)
“In the end, they walk away from his talk with the idea that the most marginal of trans women are beyond help, except to implicitly throw them scraps of recognition at “queer radical lectures” to argue that all trans people have it — ::hands held this far apart:: — this bad.”
The thing, though, is that this is part of silencing trans women and completely part of the agenda of Spade and his ilk. Trying to paint trans women as icky and other gets a lot of traction in the queer community; think of how much some privileged gay men hate us, how much people who believe that we’re setting back the movement want us gone. So how better to do it than to engage in silencing?
Add to it the real problem inherent in silencing, that as trans women we aren’t allowed to be queer without being transparent, and you have a serious problem. I know the dyke bar I hang out at wouldn’t let me in the door if they knew I was trans; I know I wouldn’t have my job if they knew I was trans. I’m trying to scratch by and live a life where I don’t even have most of the basics people take for granted, and people have the gall to say that I should be choosing to be out and that it’s somehow my moral failing? Micromanaging women’s bodies and lives much? Oh, wait, it’s okay when it’s micromanaging trans women, right…and, you know, the ‘you should be out’ BS sounds a lot like the tropes of trickery that are often used to silence and even kill us as trans women.
I can’t play this game anymore. I’m tired of being an outcast in queer society because later-corridor trans women, who control almost all trans woman-inclusive spaces, hate my life choices, don’t like disabled people, don’t believe you can be butch and be trans (been ignoring that for like 20 years now, yo) all the trans guys locally think trans women are icky and gross, and, oh yeah, to be allowed in the ‘queer community’, I have to be silent and not speak of being trans or my dyke card will get pulled. This is why I’m tired and angry; forcible isolation because I can’t even network with other trans women, coupled with that acceptance requires silence…it wounds you, and I’m sick and tired of being wounded.
While I agree with what you’ve written about Spade making trans women of color pretty much invisible in a lot of what he says about trans oppression, I am going to give him credit for starting the Sylvia Rivera Law Project and for speaking out against the prison industrial complex. Have you ever attempted to have dialog with him about some of his statements?
Short answer: yes.
Longer answer: yes, I have. With his actions, which reach far harder than his mere statements. Before writing this, I’ve traded notes with other people who’ve differentially dealt with him, and the characteristics are impossible to discount as mere fluke or oversight.
His sentiment, in response: described above — the sanitized, nice version.
Snark intended: thanks for playing the doubting thomas role of presuming a trans man’s words/actions lends greater credence than what a trans woman braves to say at risk (or, if you review these comments, at least two trans women — so far — from probably fairly different backgrounds).
“presuming a trans man’s words/actions lends greater credence than what a trans woman braves to say at risk”
I don’t see you being “at risk” on this thread… you’re expanding upon what Jack already said. Also, you’re an anonymous person on the Internet critiquing someone who’s very “out.” (and I’m not saying he shouldn’t be held responsible for his comments and actions). I don’t ‘presume’ anything about Spade other than what he’s already done, which I mentioned. And I’ve made critiques of some of his statements on sites like Autostraddle where there is universal love and warship for him.
Not every trans person has the privilege to live openly. This is especially so for a great many trans women, relative to trans men, writ large. He knows this, and he exploits it to his ends. He is comfortable with pushing trans women to be as out as him in order to be an authentic activist. Sort of easy for him to do: he’s very well-educated, comes from decent-class means, and and side-stepped many, if not most of the systemic barriers endemic to being a trans woman.
As for the SRLP, I will defer to other people who can better describe what the project, under his purview, was and was not supposed to achieve.
I feel like a lot of what you are saying about Dean Spade is alluding to things, is there maybe an article or something about this that goes over things more thoroughly or mentions specifics things he has said or something?
I was at a talk with Dean Spade a few months ago and I did notice how he sort of evasively avoided mentioning trans women, but I wasn’t really in a position to articulate how I felt then, and of course since as far as I could tell I was probably one of if not the only trans woman in the room of 50+ people who were totally falling in love with him, criticizing him afterwards would have felt too isolating.
And this is the first time I have seen anyone say what is being said here, so I’m wondering where I can learn more and maybe have something I can show others?
At this point, provisionally speaking, you (or anyone) need to reach out to talk with people who have been hurt or manipulated by his M.O. You’re going to have to vault a wall of fear first whose characteristics don’t look that unfamiliar to someone who has been an abuse survivor by an authority figure. That’s basically what we’re dealing with here.
“a few good transmen”??
Why are transmen obliged to be good?? Only monsters are exactly what they think they are and only cartoon characters are exactly what YOU think they are. Aren’t transmen permitted to be both as insufferable and as enlightened as anyone else? Isn’t anyone?
If you disagree with someone is it not sufficient to disagree? Vehemently even. Why “tear them down.”. It’s a short walk from tearing someone down in print to lining up the enemies of the peopke against a wall.
It’s because it’s not about “disagree”-ing. It’s about our basic dignity as people. I think by invoking an overblown analogy of violence it might feel like you’re making a point, but you actually bring up the problem: exclusion is killing us, by social and medical neglect, by not having safe places to turn if we become survivors of physical or sexual violence, and, oh yes, by doing nothing when we get killed.
So in your attempt to pander to your followers by using the dogwhistle whine that trans women demanding we be included and seen as humans by the queer community that’s worked shared to other is and keep us out, you ultimately made a wonderful point for me: exclusion kills.
also, um, “trans men” is 2 words, not one and it’s kind of offensive/demeaning when people make “trans men” and “trans women” it into one–it suggests that we are something different than men and women if you can’t even use the words “men” and “women” do describe us without changing them. especially since the thing you are quoting has it as 2 words. just an fyi
I miss Camp Awkward!
I mean, this is pretty standard stuff that has been happening for a very, very long time. You’re right, there’s nothing new here (sounds like a dig at you but it’s not at all, just stating a reality).
It’s super easy (certainly not comfortable most of the time, but solidarity is rarely comfortable) for trans guys to say to other trans guys “hey, pay attention to the people who know!” It’s something else altogether to say to trans guys “lets shut our traps & clear some space; don’t go to that event because it implicitly or explicitly doesn’t include trans women and they have said that’s not ok and here is how they’ve said we can help; put up some dollars to support this trans-woman-only/centred-event-that-no-you-don’t-get-to-go-to–deal-with-it; take the time to offer actually tangible resources like building a ramp to ensure an event you’re maybe not invited to is more accessible to more trans women; contributing in other ways as directed by trans women, etc. And something else entirely to spend time actually dealing honestly with the reasons why some people get listened to while others are left in the dirt.
It’s one thing when you say people should support, it’s another to actually support when it means you won’t get that oft-sought after “visibility” so many people seem so fond of using as an explanation for busted behaviour.
And part of that means not taking up so much space. So if you insist on writing an article about transmisogyny? Link link link out the ass, til the people who are reading can’t make sense of any of it unless they go to the links where trans women speak their experiences. The only way this shit gets better is for trans men/ dudes/ guys/ whatever to challenge one another, yeah, but also just get the hell out of the way so the folks who already know the heart of this shit can do what they need to.
You deserve all the sex you desire for writing this great essay… but Detroit in winter sounds really unappetizing.
i think it’s kind of dangerous to say that anyone ever “deserves” sex.
What’s wrong with saying someone deserves sex? That has nothing whatsoever to do with how it’s obtained.
i just don’t think sex is really a reward or prize–i think it is often treated as one within queer/trans communities which bothers me a lot of the time.
I don’t see it as any different than saying to someone “you deserve love, safety, a cookie, a roof over your head and a job.”
It also erases aces‘ needs and priorities.
If Jack IDs as asexual (which I’ve never heard him mention) then I apologize. If you’re just bringing it up to be insufferable, then I would would say it’s irrelevant to what I wrote. Not everyone likes cookies either.
Totally interesting point. Food for though, Jack
Here’s a really good example of the spoken word trend you talk about. A trans guy magazine in Australia (and their readership) were recently pulled up in discussions around trans misogyny and how the magazine and the cultures that support it were perpetuating it. There were all kinds of defensive flailings, shutting down trans women’s voices and then they put out this handy singlet: MANNING UP AGAINST SEXISM. Tah-duh! Problem solved, right? Next thing yknow, there are photos all over the internet of dudes wearing these singlets followed by comments of: DROOL, HOTTT, HUBBAHUBBA, ETC.
Ie. Let’s make conversations of trans-dude-misogyny all about how sexxxy and “onto it” trans men are. What a bunch of S.N.A.G’s!
Ie. Way to take up space. Again.
The shirts: http://dudemagazine.wordpress.com/2012/01/09/dude-singlets-and-tees-now-available/
lol… the way you just summarised everything Warren is so biased that its redic.
biased in what way?
in that they’re critical of the trans dude bro community?
Not at all. Critique away! I simply don’t trust that Warren’s account of events and discussion are entirely accurate. The post seems designed to garner a particular reaction. Hence, BIAS.
I did go to the Sydney launch of this mag, to see what it was all about. There was a trans woman speaking about these issues, so that alone indicates to me that the community in Sydney and/or the mag want to address this. How is that shutting down trans women’s voices?
It’s hard to definitively know without having been in attendance. In an earlier essay, Jack Radish describes how CAFAB-heavy events will “enlist” or use a trans woman as a representative token to assure sure their optics bases are covered. It might be worth reviewing that event to determine the spread of invited prticipants.
Yes that is a good point and very possible. Anything is possible, but we don’t know the specifics – at what stage was the trans woman invited etc? If we want our spaces to be healthier and to rid our communities of misogyny and trans misogyny, how does one go about including trans women without risking them feeling tokenised etc? And the event I went to was primarily for trans guys, does every event have to include trans women or should people organising these events feel compelled to invite a trans female speakers? Controversial questions – but it seems one can do no right?
>How does one go about including trans women without risking them feeling tokenised etc?
That’s really, really easy in execution, but possibly hard in social-political spirit: you make trans women and non-binary genderqueer people (CAMAB and CAFAB both) co-stakeholders in the event. What you don’t do: organize away, then get to looking at the nearly-finalized agenda and say to fellow co-organizers: “we need a trans woman here” (double-fail score if you arrive to that and you have a short and ready list of “regular locals” to roll out like an old cannon once used in some imperialist war of yore).
>And the event I went to was primarily for trans guys, does every event have to include trans women or should people organising these events feel compelled to invite a trans female speakers?
As for your other question(s): unless the event is specifically by and for CAFAB guys, with the expectation that only CAFAB guys are going to show up, then you probably don’t needs any women present — whether CAFAB (cis) or CAMAB (trans). But if these are events wherein they are de facto CAFAB love-ins for women and men to the ominous exclusion of women who were CAMAB, then you really need to reset your optics and figure out quickly why that’s happening, because it’s not some crazy coincidence.
>Controversial questions – but it seems one can do no right?
Hardly. Do some legwork, ask yourself some tough-to-confront questions, answer them, and take some agency over the institutional (and possibly wilful) exclusion of some trans people to the benefit of others. Those days are quickly coming to an end.
hmm, yep, true. there needs to be a forum about this stuff. in public, in person. accessible to everyone and off the inter web. it’s an entirely different playground on here.
The problem is that “in person” is never “accessible to everyone”. It’s only accessible to those who have access to being there in person (and who can safely be there in person). There is a give-and-take to the internet: greater accessibility, but greater risk of being held accountable for one’s actions.
And yes, the geography of the internet is, presently (and foreseeably) the only geography where trans people have anything approaching a critical mass. Because it’s not possible for trans people to do the same in physical geographies (which cis people accept for granted), you’ll have to get used to this playground.
This thread links down to the language and classism thread down below. There are positive and negative benefits to online discourse. It’s really easy for ‘smart’ people to disempower ‘not so smart’ people. (I used those words really loosely – there are different kinds of smarts). But here on the web, its a whole lot of fancy argumentative and political angles without much relationship building out in the real world. Someone in person can be as meek as anything and avoid connecting with someone and being direct with them about what they think. But then give them a computer and WHAM! they are the loudest of them all. And then some.
That trans woman was me. and it was totally tokenistic and the main DUDE caught up with me before hand to make sure I “kept it positive” and “didn’t say anything negative”…
Policing what trans women say. Cool.
oh really? why did that happen do you think Pony?
This reads as incredibly, incredibly patronizing.
Yes it does, I agree. I’m an avid reader of the queer and gender theory ‘days of our lives’ types blogs/facebook/tumblr etc and sometimes I’m not surprised that certain people are confronted with being asked to be positive. I would ask, how to they conduct themselves online in the first place?
“I’m not surprised that certain people are confronted with being asked to be positive. I would ask, how to they conduct themselves online in the first place?”
and
“oh really? why did that happen do you think Pony?”
This sounds awfully a lot like calling pissed off feminists “killjoys”.
There is a place for angry, its a valid emotion, but that is totally different to bullying.
Fancy, “bullying” requires cronies to do the bidding of an alpha agitator. This is not bullying.
and again, do trans male specific events need to include trans women?
after typing that I realised it implied that trans women shouldn’t be welcome at all, everyone should be welcome. not my point. my point is why do trans male event organisers have to feel compelled to invite trans women to speak? how can they avoid being ‘tokenistic’?
Well I think you’ll find that this was in particular response to people calling out the transmisogyny of DUDE (eg use of the word tranny) and trans male culture in general (eg coopting the violence and oppression faced by trans women of colour)…. and the best way to address this is by listening to the voices of trans women.
yes of course – which is what I find ironic about the original post by Jack. Why not just link to articles already written by trans women? It seems like an attempt to break new ground but in my opinion falls short because it is an example in itself of trans men talking too much or aiming to represent the voices of trans women.
Also, i could be wrong, Pony, you seem to have your finger on the pulse more than I, but didn’t DUDE respond fairly quickly and remove the T word from the magazine and then subsequently advocated for the voices of trans women? I remember seeing links to prettyqueer.com and some other blogs by trans women.
I think there is more to this story and that is why I was so reluctant to swallow Warren’s initial post.
So I’ll ask again, and I’d like your opinion Pony – do all trans male specific events need to feel compelled to include trans women speakers? and why?
It totally depends on what the event is achieving.
For example, I don’t see the point of a trans woman speaking at an event that is focussed on trans male specific sexual health.
I do however think that the current climate of trans misogyny in trans male culture needs to be seriously addressed.
True. From my experience, I can sometimes witness or even personally experience (in past radical and anarchic projects) a lot of pressure or expectation to be meeting the needs of all people and meeting the needs of all agendas – this can often lead to harsh criticism of what has failed, and I think that we could all be a little better at acknowledging that nothing and nobody is perfect, it is constantly evolving and we could all maybe acknowledge some of the things that projects do do successfully. And I must admit I’m a little more removed from the queer community and gender politics these days, but I can say that certain people can attract more criticism than warranted and this can often reveal more about others and their issues or what challenges they are facing in what they are trying to achieve rather than that of the actions of the one being critiqued.
you make including trans women sound like such a chore–it seems like you should want to include the voices of trans women so if it feels like this big chore/inconvenience to you, maybe you should work on figuring out those feelings first.
i feel like a pretty good way to make sure you are tokenizing the trans women you do include is to include them out of a sense of feeling like you have to include them. like, if you are getting together a committee or something and you realize there are no trans women involved, you should get this feeling like, “dang, this committee SUCKS cause there are no trans women involved, how are we going to get anything awesome done?” not, like, “uh oh, there’s no trans women, someone’s going to judge me for this”
Granted it appears that way online, but believe me, it isn’t the case. I just don’t see a problem with a specific group of people organising something for their needs without paying lip service to a group of other people with different needs etc. Don’t even take the risk to tokenise in the first place. (I’d like to know when Pony was asked to speak at the event in Sydney with the magazine? Was it 2 days before or was it months before?)
Also, where I am from and who I have seen become very prominent in queer and gaystream communities, who hold positions of respect, leadership and so forth ARE trans women! And when y’all keep referring to the voice of trans women not being heard – y’all keep saying mostly that these trans women are poor people of colour. Well, I’d hedge my bets that they can’t afford to sit on a computer for hours writing narcissistic dribble. I’d also hedge my bets that the people who DO have time to write, ARE getting their voices heard LOUD and CLEAR. But perhaps in ways that doesn’t serve the cause as well as they would like.
When you’re not invited to help organize at the geographic local level, then you find yourself with a little more time to write.
As for:
>I just don’t see a problem with a specific group of people organising something for their needs without paying lip service to a group of other people with different needs etc.
There is so much encoded here which could be unpacked for what it is. Let’s just mention for now that “organizing skills” as you describe them are skills learnt from being a previously welcomed member of a community. They’re called “skills” because they are not picked up in a test tube or inborn capabilities.
This is why it comes to little surprise to see the community organizing relationship between cis dykes and trans men being so spectacularly similar: several of those trans men picked up those organizing skills from being included in the former. With that, there’s also some exclusionary subtexts that can be used to assure that certain people not be present or, if present, to assume as passive a role as possible to to never be invited to the table of learning those community organizing skills.
>where I am from and who I have seen become very prominent in queer and gaystream communities, who hold positions of respect, leadership and so forth ARE trans women!
There is a lot of code in this, too, just waiting to be unpacked. But this isn’t really the place to do it. Let’s just do this: of those women to which you speak, exactly how many of them are an integral part of the cis dyke community and not, say, the cis gay community? How many of them aren’t solo players who are revered as a bit gadflyish?
(These were not rhetorical questions, but you’re welcome to make them so if you feel the need.)
The days of advocating this categorical exclusion to active participation of women whose bodies are trans is coming to an end, Fancy. And perhaps if you hit the pause button on your resistance to people working with one another online, you might see that there are a lot — a lot — of people right now who are starving to learn those skills. For now, the geography of the internet is possibly the only place they can go right now to learn this — especially when they’re not privileged to be in a major city where it’s OK to, say, be a woman and have a trans body simultaneously. They go there because they’re not getting to do so locally.
If, Fancy, you’re a CAFAB person, and you know how to organize, then you really ought to start teaching women who were CAMAB those powerful skills and to bring them into the fold with working alliances and partnerships. This is especially so at this particular moment, now that the 1970s are on the phone: they want their essentialism and separatism back. I’ll hold the line for you.
Great post, thanks. I’m really reading and hearing that.
Can I just ask? Are the acronyms below supposed to be the other way around? I just want to understand the context?
“If, Fancy, you’re a CAFAB person, and you know how to organize, then you really ought to start teaching women who were CAMAB those powerful skills and to bring them into the fold with working alliances and partnerships.”
Thanks in advance and really insightful.
This is an indirect reply, Fancy, to your reply (which hit the end of the line):
>Are the acronyms below supposed to be the other way around? I just want to understand the context?
Nope. That was correctly written.
seriously? what bs.
when have trans women been so incredibly forced to include trans men as much as trans men are being forced to now include trans men?
this cause will not EVER get the calling it seeks.
I’m a trans man, and when i meet new trans women and when I come out to them, they act so surprised and they actually have no idea what a trans man is. With out a doubt every time. fucken bull shit.
>when have trans women been so incredibly forced to include trans men as much as trans men are being forced to now include trans men?
Once you set aside the trans women I’m pretty sure you’re thinking of right now — the counter-feminist lackeys who uphold paternalistic gatekeepers — I think you’ll find your remark to be off-target. Those very same trans women, while they were blowing off trans men in the late ’90s, were blowing off, resenting, and objectifying trans women who lacked their socialized experiences.
They had (and have) done a lot of damage to a lot of people, and that’s why CAFAB guys, some of whom turning to their community organizing skills (learnt in the lesbian community), mobilized and started to reshape several urban and national institutions to specifically address their needs. Problem is, this left out the very same CAMAB women which those damaging, misogynist (yes, misogynist) trans women were also leaving out.
Fast forward to now, and not only are those from that “lost generation” of trans women still being told by a few CAFAB guys how they were responsible for trans men being screwed over before the new millennium (which is hurtful and deeply wrong to allege), there are also whole new generations of CAMAB women who know nothing of that damage first-hand, but still find themselves on the outside looking in. A lot of CAFAB men of the same generations, knowing nothing of that damage first-hand, meanwhile, are finding themselves inside looking out. And some of them — those who recognize their social clout is fairly solid and wondering how this imbalance happened — are standing up and saying, “This is not fair. Let them in.” This is why I’m OK with Jack Radish speaking here. This is why I’d be OK with him and a few others to say something to trans men when those same, misogynist trans men automatically blow off trans women who’ve been saying the same things to them.
So maybe wherever you are, you’ve principally dealt with that counter-feminist generation of trans women who, by now, are well into their middle ages. I don’t really know. And in smaller towns, maybe it’s that counter-feminist generation which predominates. I speak to major cities, because they are what I’ve known. And in those major cities, trans women of that lost generation and trans women who have a solid feminist world view and body of experiences are the ones being spoken for, ridiculed, excluded, tokenized, and used to propel things forward for others. Quite often, they have absolutely nowhere to go for community, nowhere to find each other to build community, nowhere to mobilize, nowhere to feel safe, and nowhere in the community to seek out resources. These include resources like basic health care or going to places which could be qualified as safe (of which “women and trans welcome here” is, for trans women, analogous to what “no dogs or Jews allowed here” was for North America in the 1920s).
When, however, you see CAFAB men trot out the “what about the poor ol’ trans women of colour” card when shooting down what a CAMAB woman is saying, then you know he’s already copped to playing the misogyny card of “what women say doesn’t matter, because they haven’t had it as tough as the starving child on a ‘feed the world’ poster.” It’s also really denigrating to women who are trans, women who know poverty, women of colour, intersections of these, and women overall. The last person to be playing that derailment card are guys who would rather not hear what a trans woman might say.
>I’m a trans man, and when i meet new trans women and when I come out to them, they act so surprised and they actually have no idea what a trans man is. With out a doubt every time. fucken bull shit.
If you run into a trans woman who “has no idea”, then you can either be urbane about it if they act in good faith, or you can be a dick about it. If they’re being snarky, then tell them so or walk away. It’s your call. Don’t paint all trans women with one brush, just as you shouldn’t paint all women with one brush, lest you hope to win misogyny playing chips.
The world is now your oyster, Bryce: how are you going to treat it?
While I’m not exactly sure what your reply is attempting to address, I’m guessing that perhaps you live in a more rural area where it’s kind of an issue that trans men lack access and inclusion much akin to the manner that trans women often lack access and inclusion in more urban queer spaces. This is kinda not okay, too. If you’re just trying to use a few isolated examples of trans women to imply and “prove” that we’re jerks, though…yeah.
I’m sorry you’ve met a less than representative sample. It doesn’t mean you get to shit on me, and when you do so, that makes you a misogynist douchebag. It’s kind of why I hate the queer community, because a mindset like yours is what forces me to be silent (you can’t always tell by looking, yanno) in queer space; I can be a queer girl *or* I can be trans, but never the twain shall they meet.
This has to stop, and you can ridicule and lash out until the end of days, we’re still gonna be here.
i live in a major city and the most recent example was when i went to the pride fair. i told some trans women that i was a trans guy and they didn’t believe me and also didn’t know what one was. these women were handing out flyers to a Ms. Transexual competition or event etc. So they were pretty organised in their community. also, one was a doctor, so that means they are switched on. and yeah, there are some trans women i know who are cool and there are some trans guys that are total douche bags too.
You ran into a few trans women at a Pride Fair kind of situation who were, by all accounts, jerks. I’m sure it’s a coincidence that you’re mentioning that one is a doctor, as the idea that we all have these magical privileged jobs is part of what’s used to tear us down.
The “trans community” representatives that are outward-facing are not all of us, and I realize they were jerks, but there are thousands of us who don’t deserve to be judged on the basis of those people. It’s like saying that all trans women are awful because the ones who run the local support group are awful; it’s not a valid equation, and when you make decisions based on it, it’s really unfair to us all.
Hi. I’m Erica. I’m a waitress, a butch dyke, a student, a singer, and, oh yes, nothing like those assholes. Please have basic respect for that I’m allowed to be in queer space, the same respect I’d have if I don’t tell someone I’m a trans woman. Don’t assume that I’m the same as those people and I won’t assume you’re the same as the -aydens. Some of whom are excellent people. I’m sorry a lot of trans women are horrible, but that isn’t an excuse for keeping us out, mmkay? It’s a rigged game, and as usual the people with power and privilege are the ones rigging it. Don’t participate and lower yourself to playing.
yes you are so right, i know and i’m sorry. it is true that the same goes for trans guys as well. nobody is the same. and it isn’t good to generalise.
i want to learn more about how to be a better person, about how to be more inclusive, how to be more respectful…. and i know that there are a lot of people who have a lot of skills to share. sometimes i see these forums as ripping down trans guys, much the same way i just made you feel (which i’m sorry about). down below someone asked how trans guys can do this better and Warren said he couldn’t be bothered and that trans guys a spoon fed. well, why be so snarky and complain but then offer nothing people can work with.
it seems as though all the responsibility is being put on trans guys to raise the positive profile of trans women. what about the rest of the community and society?
OK – I feel I have to clarify/back pedal a little bit.
Obviously I agreed to speak at the event knowing full well expectations etc etc and knowing it was somewhat tokenistic. Tension between having nobody bring up these issues vs having them brought up in a way that’s not really addressing the issues etc etc.
Right, that seems reasonable. Thanks. A difficult position for you to be in. You clearly have some important work to do here and its really important to you. Would there be a way to approach the person you met with and work at delivering the message via a different context? If you were invited to speak at that event, with plenty of time in advance to prepare and engage with this person about your points, I wonder if there could have been (and still be) a way to facilitate what really needs to be said?
To Pony – is it not possible to still address issues and remain positive or solution focussed? I don’t see criticism as negative, criticism is positive, especially when accompanied by presenting solutions. Without solutions or ideas on how to counteract these issues, then it does become negative. I don’t see that as policing. Were you asked to not say anything specific?
Having seen Pony speak a bunch, they are actually positive – in the way you frame it above.
Unfortunately it’s often people who get really defensive and see all critique as negative who say things like “let’s keep it positive.”
I’ve read this whole thread over the last few days and I’ve learned so much. I will admit that I have held views that probably needed challenging. I think it is because I just didn’t understand. It was hard to understand as well because I don’t know a lot of trans women who speak about this stuff – but I know there are heaps of blogs. There have been some really generous people writing about how they feel and pointing out some really good ways to go about things differently in the future and I’m really appreciative of that. Especially because I know how hard and tiring and painful it is to educate people and share your views and to fight against the shit that hurts! So *high five* to everyone.
I have also heard Pony speak, I agree with a lot of what Pony says and I think Pony is clearly very smart (sometimes in ways that makes it hard for me to catch up – it takes me a little longer to get there I think). However, there are a few things I am not sure I agree with and I’m afraid that if I were to speak up that it would be difficult to engage or discuss. I say that because although I’ve seen Pony speak bravely, I’ve also seen some online debating which I didn’t think was so great. Again though, that is probably brought on by all this douchebaggery as mentioned in the article.
I guess I’m also wanting to say that its hard to engage *knowing full well* that some of my views need some tweaking, some improvement and some *updating* – but is there still some room left to respectfully disagree on a few things?
For eg. Why is it so bad that trans guys have surgery fund raisers? I would totally support a trans women having one and I would totally go in support and donate as well.
oops sorry. *trans woman* not, women.
My comment was snarky, I should take responsibility that it could start an argument. But Jack’s article was describing a culture of how trans men keep ‘missing the point’ when it comes to sexism. I was giving one example of it to contribute to us thinking about how we do it.
& Yes my comment was biased, if bias is being cynical with how men respond to accusations of sexism. I don’t think that’s some personal grudge I have, it’s feminist analysis.
& Yes, you’re right that I was simplifying and there is a lot more to this story. It WAS a summary that left out a lot of details. There are plenty of other examples of trans men (individually, but I think importantly, as a culture) being sexist, and in their attempts not to (appear to be), being sexist again.
Warren, I would suspect that the conversations that have been held around this particular publication and its readership have someway shaped the course of action/s taken by the people involved with the project. Which is commendable and also excellent that trans guys are engaging in challenging discourse. I’m sure it isn’t easy for a minority group to be so introspective and confront each other on views and opinions held. Especially a relatively vulnerable one. So I wouldn’t take it lightly that you’ve had a positive impact and Pony clearly has as well. But I also wouldn’t take it lightly that there are obviously people on the other end who engaged with you and took on board the criticism and enacted change accordingly. And when I read posts like yours it does make me think that it doesn’t give fair representation to the other parties nor does it pay homage to the good results achieved by all of you (and them) coming to certain resolutions. Whether we all like it or not, all of us need to understand where each other is coming from to address these issues. Thanks for engaging with me though, I do appreciate it and you’ve all certainly sparked a new interested in me reading up on the latest amongst the gender pirates and cohorts.
Although Warren, if you have the time and energy to expand on this – I’m interested to learn about how people (such as the dudes in this mag project) could possible change what they do further to address some of these issues you raise?
-taking up space
-trans misogyny
-sexism
and there must be more than that going on in the current climate – as Pony put it.
And also, is there a project that you and Pony are involved in which address this stuff as well? Please pop a link up here so I can check out what you are doing? Thanks!
I’d be surprised if some of these people were involved in anything apart from remaining on the net, whinging, complaining and trolling. It is a sad waste of energy when their smarts could be used for something worthwhile.
Actually, I’m finding this whole thread tiresome. I find it pretty impressive the lengths people will go to to defend men against being pulled up on misogynist behavior. The point of what we’ve been saying is: no, we don’t think people have significantly changed. Taking a word off a poster and parading in a shirt is not actually good enough (let’s not even go there with the phrase “man up”). I mean you used the phrase “commendable” to describe public gestures. It kind of proves the point of the article.
No, I can’t be bothered detailing step by step how trans men could change in regard to all these issues because I think everyone’s been spoon fed it enough. Google trans feminism or something, or just stop being a jerk.
I can’t really engage anymore with someone who uses the phrase “gender pirates” in relationship to transgender people, thinks that pointing out sexist behavior is “trolling” (but going to lengths to defend men against it isn’t), or who reduces an issue of trans misogyny down to whether a trans woman has the right to speak at trans men’s events (and complains about how hard it is to be inclusive).
In all honesty, I posted the original post giving an example of kudos for [failed] trans man feminism thinking that on this forum, the obviousness of it would be a given.
Warren, I noticed you didn’t mention what project you are involved in? Is there anything that you are doing?
I’m primarily involved in peer sex worker organising. A bunch of this work is working towards situating transgender people’s (men and women’s) experiences and needs better within the sex worker rights movement. I can’t share the details of that because the organising and conversations are peer only.
But I think it’s pretty gross to keep asserting “but what are you doing?” as though we need to prove that we’re doing more than “just sitting on the internet” as though being an organised dude-bro is a better alternative.
I think it is actually pretty fair to weed out armchair critics. There are just too many of them.
Armchair critics??
After all that’s been written above about people using the internet to form community and learn skills and share information?
Having a critical perspective on misogyny in queer communities and sharing it here is DOING something.
It seems you think that anyone who has a critical opinion needs to justify themselves to you. Gross.
I would have thought the whole point of this article and thread is to share experiences of trans men failing to respond to talk about misogyny. And that’s what warren was doing. If you can’t see why printing “manning up against sexism t-shirts” is a massive misogynist fail then you’re just wasting everyone’s time here.
Also you sound like every derailing whinging queer activist in Sydney – ohhh it’s so hard to do anything, those trans people are always being sooo negative and critical and wanting to be included.
Hello Warren, i would really like to learn from you and what you know about how trans guys could be better. I know I haven’t read many books or might not know what websites to read. But if you can’t be bothered guiding then how can you also be bothered criticising? It looks like you just want to be negative when maybe if you wrote something about what we could do it might help? Thanks.
Bryce,
I didn’t offer what *I* thought were suggestions for how trans men could change a misogynist culture, because as the article above states there has been a shittonne of writing on this BY WOMEN. I’m not a woman so I don’t really think it’s my place and I would just be regurgitating stuff that, to be honest, I think A LOT of trans men (especially trans men involved in queer trans community organising) have had exposure to. Those articles are easy to find. Some of them are on this site even. That’s why my suggestion was to stop being a jerk & google trans feminism. Those suggestions come out of the mouths/keyboards of trans women and they get mocked/ignored. I think it’s gross that a trans man would listen to me, but not the ridiculous amount of trans women who have been saying this stuff over and over. That’s the point of the article.
Also, I don’t think the answer is that difficult and it doesn’t necessarily mean a list of gestures you can tick off (support trans women’s zine distros, have a trans woman speaker at your event, wear a shirt that says you’re against sexism, etc.). Learn about misogyny, stop seeing the world through that lens. It’s about changing a culture.
I’m not absolved of sexist behavior either. This quote from the article super resonates with me:
“My contempt for trans-man-douchebaggery and the whole culture that supports it is a sincere and driving force and among the most precious values in my life. ”
I hold my own behavior up against this value too. So I’m reluctant to paint myself as “the better man” (which is one of my criticisms of the “manning up” shirt).
Ok, thanks Warren. I’m going to go read up on the women’s blogs.
I wish there was a safe space to go to where I can put myself out there and say ‘hey i’m scared i’m going to get it wrong and i need help to learn’. Also i’m worried that I’ll say something in the process of learning and have a lot of people tell me i’m fucked.
I think i have low self esteem and i really try. I know these are my problems, but i find the queer political groups to be really hard to be in.
the culture of “calling people out” in queer culture can be brutal and unproductive and kind of cliquey. But it’s also happened to everyone.
It can be scary to think you might lose your community or friends over something you said and I think a lot of peoples’ response to that feeling is to get defensive and not listen to anything that people are saying. It’s so important to just listen and know it’s not the end of the world–you can just see it as an opportunity to learn to be a better ally and community member in the future.
Then just learn from it, take accountability and/or apologize to the person you hurt if it seems appropriate and will not hurt them more and drink some tea and read a book or something.
There was a discussion about calling people out in the comments section to Morgan M. Page’s article “Just Call Me Hunter, Maybe Then You’ll Sleep With Me” http://www.prettyqueer.com/2011/07/23/just-call-me-hunter/ if you’re interested (it’s also just a good article so you should read that too if you haven’t)
I recently (after reading your comment, otherwise I wouldn’t have noticed the magazine at all), requested that Dude magazine take seriously their call-out around “standing up against sexual violence in our communities” and to remove the link to kael t block’s xx boys site in an interview they’d done [http://dudemagazine.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/stand-up-against-sexual-violence-in-our-communities/ ] , and provided them with an alternative link critiquing his rapist bullshit, and they’ve now changed it. I know nothing about this magazine other than what I’ve perused since reading this, couldn’t really give a shit about this kind of thing, but hope that continual conversation about this kind of thing amongst people who do will make a difference in the long run. And I would add: not re-inventing the fucking wheel every time there’s a callout or change required, and then imagining that I came up with something brilliant.
MHM,
That’s great that you saw that, pointed it out & it got changed. I’m reluctant to give anyone a pat on the back though because I know that people involved in the magazine (and ironically one of the writers who has been putting stuff on the site about sexual assault) have been pulled up time and time again on misogyny and responded not just disappointingly, but in a compounding misogynist way.
I think it’s really great for anyone to be publicly against sexual assault and take up dialogue on the nuances of rape culture. And I’m super happy that the person who came forward to the mag about experiencing sexual assault is getting the support they need. That should be a default standard but often isn’t, it’s great that it is in this situation.
But my cynicism comes from: if you’re gonna be a silencing, misogynist jerk about other sexist behavior, but take action to respond to a sexual assault – what does that say about your standards for women? Does is take someone to get raped for you to recognise sexism?
[slight derail]
It reminds me of when white people point the finger at other white people wearing First Nations’ headdresses as shitty cultural appropriation (which it is) but fail to recognise all the other ways that it exists. Like it takes colorful feathers for it to be recognisable.
What does it also say about the paternal ways that men love to protect women? I’m not saying this is the motivation of this response (I totally believe that taking a position against rape culture is a sincere one) but as men it’s a dynamic that needs thinking about if your other gestures make women out to be silly, neurotic, feminist killjoys.
for real. where do you get off, sizing someone up and labelling them a misogynist. that word is getting so overused. applied way to liberally.
wow, you really seem to have an issue with that Jez guy.
‘what does that say about your standards for women? Does is take someone to get raped for you to recognise sexism?’
actually this is pretty offensive to that guy you are talking about. so he is a sexist pig who has low standards for women does he? I don’t believe that.
It certainly wasn’t about pats on the back, it was *one* example of a place from which they could make *one* change and continue some kind of process of accountability or understanding regarding their “standing up against sexual violence in our communities” stance. Nothing more.
Warren, I’d be careful to make assumptions of character like you are. It tends to expose your underlying bitterness on a personal nature.
In fact your statement about the person you’ve mentioned (who apparently has low standards for women and condones women being treated poorly – until they are raped and then and only then will he step in and act or acknowledge that there is sexism in the world) is a pretty low blow.
I hope you can back this shit up with some examples of how this person has executed acts of silencing, misogyny and sexism. And while you’re at, maybe bring him into the fold so he can voice his side of events. Bloody hell!
To clarify, I’m not talking about Jez.
Who is talking about character, or a person? did you even read the original article… it, and warren’s comment are clearly about a culture of trans misogyny, trans douchebaggery or whatever else you want to call it.
Individuals are far less important than the overall culture, and this flood of people jumping up to say “hey, no, nobody did anything wrong” and “how dare you say something is misogynist” does more to prove the point of Jack’s article than anything else.
As Jack said:
>>>> At this point, I’ve found that if I ever venture into trans man only space (something I generally avoid), I can yell as loudly as I’d like against transmisogyny and no one will listen because I am quickly labelled as an outsider…<<<<<
Isn't that what's happening here? Instead of taking time to think about how the Dude t-shirts might be perpetuating a culture of misogyny people just jump on the person making the critique and tell him he's bitter and has personal issues.
Ps this thread is such an amazing encylopedia of denial and derailing.. every technique illustrated in full colour!
trans guys. the new feminist experiment, easier targets than cis guys, more within your reach and subjected more to expectations around social responsibility than anyone else.
hahaha, this is hilarious. more like: trans guys – more likely to be let off the hook when they’re being sexist jerks and more likely to get a pat on the back for even basic feminist acts.
i don’t really think misogyny can be overused.. we live in an entirely misogynist culture and unless you are trying really hard to think and act differently to everyone around you, you are probably being a misogynist most of the time.
so if trans men are CAFAB men and their female history is as irrelevant as the price of fish, do you apply equal analysis to the cis jerks? or is that forgotten about now because trans guys are so much easier to disempower?
coz i reckon the community never even owned their shit in the first place about how trans guys were made to be outcasts in the lesbian circles – FEMINIST CIRCLES. trans guys had to fight to find their empowerment, they did it well. they were organised. what is wrong with that?
why is this becoming a trans woman vs. trans man war? who is flaming this and why? why are trans men being blamed for the suffering of trans women in queer communities?
of course i apply the same analysis to cis men who are jerks.. that’s called feminism.
so would it be better if trans guys hid away and said nothing ever again?
end the films
the magazines, the blogs, the photos, the events, the rallies.
trans guys are getting too big for their boots!
how could any person do anything without being criticised for offending or oppressing anyone? or a better question would be, at what point does something become OK?
See, if a trans man were to reply to you, “You’re being hyperbolic,” you would hear him out on why and defer to his better assessment of the situation than you, a cis woman (ostensibly). You might quibble with him, but you won’t get much traction so long as he holds firm on his position that he does not feel oppressed as a man in our culture — cis, trans, or all of the above.
But if I, a trans woman, were to reply to you, “You’re being hyperbolic,” you would — based on the comments you’ve deposited elsewhere in this discussion — shut me down and call me an oppressor of trans men (and, probably, of cis women). You would say that people like me are ruining feminism and the dreamboatness of trans men who come to CAFAB women’s social spaces (where there be no CAMAB womens to be (knowingly) seen). Then you would say that I’m anything but feminist because of my original sin of strapless taint.
What’s funnier, perhaps, is if another cis woman were to reply to you, “You’re being hyperbolic,” you would dispute her and argue that those terrible trans women are all at fault for this discussion even happening at all, that she’s just a “trans woman sympathizer” or something along those lines, and that she must also hate trans men.
Here’s a tip: let trans men answer this for themselves. So unless you’re trans, then sit this one out and do the listening for once, since this is really a trans-on-trans matter, and the cis people mucking with it (CAFAB women) are derailing this discussion with impassioned pleas of “What about teh menz?” Guess what? Men can speak for themselves. And trans men do not need cis women speaking on their behalf.
p.s., Oh, and if you’re not a cis woman, laughlightly, then you sure are bringing over a wealth of essentialist-separatist rhetoric from reactionary-radfems — rhetoric which has absolutely no place in this discussion.
This.
I’m a trans man, and I really, really, really DON’T MIND being asked by trans women to be aware of sexism, misogyny, and transmisogyny, and to try not to be an ass-hat. Instead of all flame-wars all the time, this conversation could really easily go like this:
Trans Women: “Hey, trans guys, our society is sexist, so please don’t be an ass-hat.”
Trans Men: “Oh yeah, that’s true. You’re right. I’ll try not to be an ass-hat.”
Let’s try it:
Hey Lucien, our society is sexist, so please don’t be an ass-hat.
You are totally right. I will listen to you and try to keep my ass out of my hat.
See, everyone? Was that so hard?
p.s., Sorry I misspelled your name, Lucian. It won’t happen again!
NBD!
Duh, and yay!
I think it’s good to remember that nobody is above this stuff, we ARE ALL capable of it.
Including those people who CALL US OUT.
if i was really snarky I’d just post a link to this song called I’m not your fucking mother:
“I’m so fucking tired of teaching boys how to not treat me like shit.”
http://punkfemmeproblems.tumblr.com/post/12858687194/im-not-your-fucking-mother-rape-revenge-im
Laughlightly, you asked:
Q: “why are trans men being blamed for the suffering of trans women in queer communities?”
A: Because it is predominantly trans men who are the ones benefiting from the very things that trans women are being excluded from;
A: Because it is predominantly trans men who attempt to “be the voice” for women who are sitting right there, and if people would pay attention long enough (i.e. if trans men would stop taking up so much space) could tell you in their own words what their experiences are;
A: Because it is predominantly trans men in positions to influence certain women’s communities and create a situation where trans women aren’t taken seriously as women;
A: Because it is predominantly trans men taking up space in women’s organizations, playspaces, clubs, teams, collectives, etcetera, specifically using “history” as a tool to get in and stay in the door, while completely disregarding trans women’s histories and presents;
A: Because it is predominantly trans men who sit there and claim to be allies to trans women while doing all of that and more.
This conversation is so utterly tired.
MHM out.
I loved what you wrote <3 very thoughtful and bang on!!!
Thanks for this Jack, I’ve been (silently) reading your articles here at PrettyQueer for awhile and I always appreciate hearing your perspective!
aw, thanks, I read your blog and really <3 your writing!
This all seems like a bit of a circle jerk to me. Is no one else tired of trans guys seeking brownie points for being “CAMAB allies”? Who can use the words “dismantle”, “coercive”, and “radicalized” the most? Off the internet trans people are still homeless and jobless – 7000 blog posts about the word ‘tranny’ may make a dent on the social consciousness of the queer community but not much more. I guarantee that most poor trans women of color which ya’ll drop reference to constantly would be more interested in all this energy going towards prison abolition or decriminalization of sex work rather than debating whether some trans guy is aware that his culture is a world of douche.
EXACTLY. hypocritical. and then all these people have the nerve to criticise others who actually get off their asses (off the computer) to do something in the community. > so i presume, from what I can gather here anyway.
correction: from what I can gather all over the net and within queer circles of privilege. self serving ego crap and a whole lot of trolling.
Then stop your trolling.
You’re derailing, and this isn’t a panacea situation. This is a qualified, specific paradigm, so keep it on focus. We are writing and discussing — on this thread and on Jack’s essay — on systemic exclusion and tokenizing by CAFAB men over CAMAB women and when CAMAB women are ignored when CAFAB men, saying the very same, are not only heard but also lauded for saying it.
Don’t blow off a woman (or a guy who advocates for her) by playing the “people have it much worse” card or mocking words which challenge your placement by throwing up scare quotes around them. If you don’t want to use them, then don’t. But don’t deny others from so doing. That just makes you look like a douchecopter.
Both of these are categorical manoeuvres of dismissal and admission-by-defensiveness that the grievances to which others are speaking are quite real, quite valid, and should require you to sit down and listen — really listen — to what people are saying.
In short, stop being uncivil. You’re not discoursing in good faith.
Uncivil? That is ridiculous. I have seen behaviour by some of the people in this very thread that would classify as uncivil and when they are called on it – it becomes labelled as ‘silencing’ or ‘policing’. I guess it all depends on what social capital or privilege you bring to a conversation and I could say to you that by bringing up the ‘derailing’ statement is a derailment in itself to avoid owning that sitting on the net, discoursing in academic ways is a privilege.
But a more positive question would be to ask, for real, how does essays like Jack’s translate into effective change in the community? How does it actually trickle down to bring about change? Who reads these essays? Who has access to them?
>But a more positive question would be to ask, for real, how does essays like Jack’s translate into effective change in the community?
It gets us talking. From your vantage, this may seem like child’s play, but from this vantage, it’s a huge step forward. Sit back and watch: you’ll see crystals form.
>How does it actually trickle down to bring about change?
This is not neoliberal economic policy. Further to that, when we recognize that all social intersections are valid, then we can start to do away with the old model of vertical hierarchies to which your remark obliquely signifies.
>Who reads these essays? Who has access to them?
They’re not behind a pay wall or a membership screen, so they’re conceivably readable, conveyable, and printable to anyone who wants it.
If that means Jane stumbles into a great piece, she mentions it on Facebook. Then her 600 friends like it and propagate the link for that essay so that possibly another 2,000 people see the link. Friend number 354, Polly, works at a community organizing centre for street trans youth and wants to start improving community organizing skills. She prints out the piece, posts it on the bulletin board, and lets anyone read it.
Welcome to social networking.
>Uncivil? That is ridiculous.
You were. Take five and try to understand why.
>I have seen behaviour by some of the people in this very thread that would classify as uncivil and when they are called on it – it becomes labelled as ‘silencing’ or ‘policing’.
Being a jerky-jerk — and being called out for being a jerky-jerk — is not an act of “silencing” or “policing”. It’s being called out for something which is not OK. You can keep being a jerky-jerk, but do expect others to keep calling you out on it. If this is wearisome, perhaps you ought to contemplate why more people are saying being a jerky-jerk (or saying jerky-jerk things) is problematic.
Take some ownership over what you say, and don’t be all “silencing!” when what you say gets met with a “not OK”. Check yourself: no one is erasing the comments, but if they were, that would be an act of policing and silencing.
I’m sorry I was unaware that stating my opinion that this genre of self righteous diatribe was ‘denying’ people from doing it.
I am not denying that trans women are less valued in ‘queer’ spaces than trans men. That is true and a reminder that queer people are still sexist as fuck. I just find it depressing that a website that is supposed to be about centering trans womens voices is wrapped up in a frenzy celebrating some guy who is using his authority to tell people trans women deserve credit. Meta indeed.
And you need to check yourself on your fucking language. Do you spend 20 minutes with a thesaurus every time you write a comment? I don’t understand half of the shit you say. Call me a troll all you want but speaking to people from a high up academic pedestal is some classist bs.
Being intimidated by words you don’t know is not someone else being classist, it’s you being insecure.
I’m sorry, accessibility 101 here????
Someone using words like ‘panacacea’ and telling me I’m not ‘discoursing in good faith’ is totally unnecessary. Why use that language if not to take on an air of authority based on it?
I don’t feel insecure because I don’t understand academic language. I feel like if they actually cared to talk to me instead of demonstrating their intellectual prowess they would have used words that people without 8 years of university education could understand.
“Panacea” was a grade school spelling bee word at my school and on spelling exams.
If you’re going to quibble over a word you don’t know, then keep your dictionary handy. If you read this on a Mac, you get a bonus: Dictionary.app is built-in.
This is how I write and this is how I talk. My mother used to mock me for using “25-cent” words, and when she said that to me, it really hurt. I’ve learnt to move past that, but it took work undoing the emotional abuse. To have a stranger berate me like she once did? Sorry, pal. Not getting burnt that way again.
If you don’t like how I communicate with you, then you’re certainly not obliged to listen or respond. I won’t take offence. I’m also not going to insult anyone’s intelligence by speaking with the vocabulary level used in the Daily Mail or FOX News.
I think you were hurt by that and I think you bit back. I also think part of the issues with these conversations IS accessibility. I don’t mind big words, I go look them up if I don’t know them – but it is the power behind the use of the language which disempowers people in a conversation. That is classism.
I do like the way you write. I can separately note that. It is creative and interesting.
But I also need to separately acknowledge that people who write like that need to take responsibility for the affects it has on the purpose and fairness of conversations.
So if I go to college and study philosophy and english lit and write like a nobel prize winner, it obviously going to arm me with skills to write someone out of their power and out of a conversation. Unproductive. And this is also an issue with the online playground.
Also, everyone keeps referring to poor trans women of color – how accessible are these conversations to them? If they are poor, then presumably and potentially they are also uneducated – well should all us college kids take on that attitude of ‘that is your problem!’ ??
sheesh!
>I think you were hurt by that and I think you bit back.
What you read as “hurt” was more my basic annoyance for being graded on how I communicate and my unwillingness to play along.
>I do like the way you write. I can separately note that. It is creative and interesting.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
>Also, everyone keeps referring to poor trans women of color – how accessible are these conversations to them? If they are poor, then presumably and potentially they are also uneducated – well should all us college kids take on that attitude of ‘that is your problem!’ ??
That’s a pile of qualifiers, and also a bit uncool to presume that “uneducated” — which probably should read “undereducated” — somehow means dumb, simple, or not able to understand. I lacked a university education as recently as a half dozen years ago, but if you go back and read what I was saying before then, it wasn’t too terribly different than this.
I know that not everyone has brought up what you argue has been brought up by everyone. There is also a hint that “poor trans women” here is synonymous with being un(der)educated or somehow “not smart”. That’s also not very cool.
And I think that I’ll leave this as my last response to you unless you get back on the rails and discuss the exclusion of CAMAB women by CAFAB men. Get back on the rails, and I’m sure we’ll meet again.
No thats cool. Yes undereducated is absolutely what I meant. But more specifically I meant undereducated, poor, no access to a computer, no access to these types of conversations, and purely and only personal experiences to offer, instead of queer political buzz words. I just like it to get a bit real.
As for ‘the exclusion of CAMAB women by CAFAB men’, yes lets talk. Earlier (up above) I asked if you got the acronyms around the wrong way. That is because if someone is a CAFAB man (trans guy) would it also be problematic to take on a role of upskilling and teaching CAMAB women (trans women). I’m a bit confused here – how would one do that well, without subjecting themselves to another bout of intense criticism? Because it seems a CAFAB man can’t really put a foot right even if they tried? I mean even this article itself perturbs me, (emotionally I feel, shut up already and your taking up space just by writing this article, what makes you any better?)
what do you think?
Discourse is an intransitive verb. Discoursing is not a word.
You get partial credit: discoursing is an intransitive and I treated it as a transitive. But the core of it: “discoursing” is quite a word.
Source: Oxford New American Dictionary (the one on all Macs):
verb |dɪsˈkɔːs| [ intrans. ]
speak or write authoritatively about a topic : she could discourse at great length on the history of Europe.
• engage in conversation : he spent an hour discoursing with his supporters in the courtroom.
You’re pretty argumentative, Argumentative. But I also find these three replies from you to me to be quite boring.
A word being big doesn’t mean it has magic oppressing power. I think you’re thinking of advertising language… which is usually done in accessible language.
what i see here, is that people get tired and bored of each other. tired of educating each other and people are pissed off and carry fair chunks of hurt from these experiences. i see people with a lot of attitude, why do they have attitude? probably because its tough for them. but how do we make it easier? isn’t it by educating and understanding? chicken and egg.
Excellent point! We should all condescend to others as often as possible. It makes every conversation Soooo much better. The intellectual vogue for post-structuralism may well be long gone but the ponderous language lives on.
I didn’t read the rest of this thread, and maybe it’s old and people have moved on, but I will say:
It’s totally possible to spend your time organizing about things that make a real difference in people’s lives and also be hurt by the way people use language and act sexist in your community. And to talk about and act about both of those things. It’s not a hard division.
I’m speaking, too, as a person who is struggling with a LOT of stuff and organizing both because it’s the right thing to do and also *to save my own life* because this stuff (homelessness, prison stuff, HIV-related causes – benefits, access to healthcare, etc) affects me directly,
AND
I am also kind of consistently saddened and disappointed by how I feel like trans guys don’t have my back and don’t express to me the same kind of solidarity I feel like I show to them. Trans guys are my community, my friends, my brothers, my lovers. I care so deeply and love so hard and it hurts my heart when I feel like I don’t get that back, in the form of basic respect. It is an ethical thing but also an emotional thing, I freely admit that.
So, I mean, idk, that’s all.
Last I read, PQ isn’t centred on any one life experience.
>And you need to check yourself on your fucking language. Do you spend 20 minutes with a thesaurus every time you write a comment? I don’t understand half of the shit you say. Call me a troll all you want but speaking to people from a high up academic pedestal is some classist bs.
Yeah, you’re trolling. You also seem to dictate yourself just fine. And no, I don’t spend time with a thesaurus when I write. It’s clear you dislike how I write. I get it, but tough beans, especially when you derail the discussion with asides on how people communicate and why people are writing in earnest about the central topic.
Bored -
About your OP: yeah, a lot of what you said is what makes me feel uncomfortable about the article and the forum that’s happening now. It’s a total trap for trans men to take up space to talk about how trans men take up space in this way that’s typical of men and acting like a voice of authority. & I felt uncomfortable with seeing the article re-posted everywhere and the mad props it was getting. It’s a total contradiction and proves the point of the article.
But I also feel like the article is an acknowledgment of that dynamic and as it’s being written it’s critiquing itself. Totally meta.
The comments section: not just for flame wars anymore. New at PrettyQueer!
OK I’ll leave, but I wanted to point out that Warren’s post was probably inaccurate and inflammatory. What was also important to point out – just how much elitism goes around in these circles of privilege, where even the Editor in Chief of this website uses the word ‘Tranny’ in his writing. HYPOCRITICAL – don’t support this fucken website then. Y’all get on your high horses where and when it suits you.
I wouldn’t defend a sexist or misogynist at all, but I would argue that there are different levels or ideas of what is ‘civil’ or ‘uncivil’ and where and when it suits some of these people to whip our words like ‘derail’ and ‘policing’.
AND… does anyone do anything other than write to each other on the internet? After rereading the comments above I can see that Pony has a zine org, so I take that back on that level, but Warren……? BYE!
No one is telling you to leave.
Ok – what I like to see is balance. Warren’s post was unbalanced. It didn’t identify anything that the other mag project was doing successfully. So It appeared to me that Warren was sore. About what? There are sometimes underlying personal issues (not about Warren personally) but between Warren and someone else for eg.
I think it doesn’t serve any purpose well to relay information so one sided?
I think these issues are inherent in our communities having difficulty in coming to work together! I’m sure deep down people don’t want to see other people hurting.But it is about all of us learning how to deal with it well and to include everyone well.
Including everyone! Right! That was the topic!
So, it looks like so far people have suggested the following awesome ideas for including trans women more prominently in queer communities, and making long-winded but well-meaning trans guys like me speak for them less:
1) promote trans women’s blogs.
2) have trans women participate on panels and committees, not just as tokens, but for purposes of awesomeness.
Okay! Longer list! Cue Lucian shutting up!
You’re adorable. Also, I mistakenly clicked on your avatar under “recent comments” and got an egg salad on rye. Now I’m craving some deli to get inside my belly.
(I know I said I’d shut up, but I can’t NOT give a “Yessssss!” to deli food. I don’t know where you live, but if you’re in New York now or ever, I strongly recommend B&H Dairy in the East Village for that sandwich. Cheap too!)
If I visit New York, let’s go out for some sandwiches, slaw, pickle, and latkes. I love simple, no-frills deli food.
I’m there. Everybody else reading this should come too! Then if the topic gets derailed, at least we’ll have sandwiches.
A Reuben or a viande fumée, if you please.
We who frequent delis must appreciate the Reubenesque.
Oh, deli: it’s on. Now I want to go to New York just for this.
And if I were ever invited to a trans Seder, I’d go in a heartbeat (and I’d be happy to bring along the orange).
I love it when anonymous authors of Internet hit pieces who have no intention of identifying themselves (because they’re supposedly in sooo much danger) theoretically discuss getting together with someone for lunch like it’s actually going to happen. It’s just as well Lucian because I think your choice of deli platter would likely incite a 20-minute monologue about how it’s oppressing her.
It would be an intellectually stimulating and delicious lunch, I have no doubt. If Blay ever feels like telling me who she is and hanging out in New York, we will actually eat those sandwiches, mark my words!
I dislike it it when bitter trans women who asserted themselves during the last cisnormative corridor of denial to trans people turn to other trans women who not only don’t share that experience, but who also cannot afford to live openly as trans and by trying to guilt them on it; to disrespect the boundaries of women generally by said guilt; and in some of the worst cases, to attempt to “smoke out” those women by stalking them and trying to dig at their [power word:] “real name” like a honey badger (who, as some know, don’t give a shit).
Just do me and others a favour: stop doing that (or even threatening to obliquely do that). It’s very not OK.
This is why there are some serious trust failings between trans women of different experiences, different world views (i.e., feminist versus counter-feminist), and different social classes. This is why there’s some pretty bad isolation between trans women: when someone singles out a CAMAB woman and makes light of exposing her [power word:] “real identity”, then they are engaging in an act of invasion and violation. It’s a kind of violence which is very gendered, in that it disproportionately happens to women and in that it’s somehow an open season for taking away that person’s privacy like a horrible deflowering sans consent.
If grousing about or hinting at playing honey badger with me is the best you have to offer to this conversation, then I would say that this is no longer a conversation and is instead a channel for you to vent some kind of anger or resentment against a woman who neither knows you nor is ever going to trust you. Leave me alone.
wow, just…wow.
You don’t know what legitimate or illegitimate fears or reasons any woman has to not live openly, and to imply that the value of a trans woman should be tied to whether or not she lives openly is downright rude. Whether it’s rational fear of physical danger, fear of social exile, financial punishment, or some other reason, EVERY reason for any decision on this is valid, because it’s incredibly personal. We shouldn’t value one over another.
Not every woman has the courage, the stability, the safety, or the perceived safety to do so. And its disappointing that community members still feel the need to shame others for their choices.
I don’t care what your beef with another trans woman is, please don’t reinforce those attitudes…
@Monica: There’s a profound difference between “outing” a trans woman (a very legitimate concern) and someone going on the Internet with anonymity to totally rip on and make insinuations about someone who is very out. Two prfoundly different situations.
While I agree with some of the criticisms about things Dean Spade has said, there is a lot more innuendo here which is unfair, especially coming from someone posting under Internet anonymity. Sorry, I’ve seen all too many trans community trolls hiding under numerous sockpuppet identities to buy into your plea.
(I’m actually replying to “there is a lot more innuendo here which is unfair, especially coming from someone posting under Internet anonymity.”, but that comment has no reply button.)
This is an incredibly unfair comment. What the hell else are we supposed to do when somebody is doing their best to destroy someone who can’t speak out about it because in some fields, you can’t be out as a trans woman and still work? Not say anything, let people like Spade continue to make their living off trans women by paying lip service to their needs in public while throwing them under the bus in private? It’s cool that you think that anyone who blows the whistle on oppression should be willing to put their entire life on the line, but usually that’s not how it works.
@Tim C.
Anonymous charges made against people in public forums reek of the McCarthy era and its emphasis on an unnamed sources and unsaid evidence. Moreover, I see nothing in this thread that’s especially substantive (yes, Spade appropriates trans women’s oppression… so do most queer people) and most of it is a lot of innuendo. If you have very specific charges against him (because much of this very much seems made to sound like he sexually abused someone??) then be spe-ci-fic. Would you want an anonymous person attacking you online?
And btw, this little comment voting system is so infantile and belongs in the 7th grade. I notice when a prior PQ thread was ‘voted on’ by supporters of MichFest’s WBW policy, PQ continues to use it to basically minimize people’s opinions and pile on.
This comment seems to me to be just pointlessly cynical.
>It’s just as well Lucian because I think your choice of deli platter would likely incite a 20-minute monologue about how it’s oppressing her.
…using sarcasm to silence people who are actually fighting sources of oppression or injustice, even when they’re someone the community has put on a pedestal like Dean Spade, is not the logical solution to the inequities and problems inherent to our community and the fact that a number of trans men have risen to some level of power and privilege in academia and still do nothing to help trans women. In fact, most of them use systems, as discussed ad nauseam here, to silence us.
Just because you don’t know any of the people behind Cisnormativity (not shocking, since we’re mostly trans people who fit in the outside world but don’t fit in “the community” because of how fucked up and -ist/-phobic it is) doesn’t mean what we assert is any less real. Taking veiled shots at people because we have anonymity on our side ignores that our basic safety often requires it; perhaps the real problem is that you’re not calling out Spade et al and instead focusing on the convenient target, other trans women, in a wonderful attempt to blame the victim.
We’re done being victims. We’re done being shat upon by the queer community, and we’re done with trans men who have an almost Janice Raymond-esque view of trans women. You can join us, or you can claim we’re “sockpuppets” and try to argue around the facts of what little these folks are doing to help us even though they expect our support. Kinda like the HRC and trans people, actually…amazing how well that parallel works.
@inchoaterica,
Yes, it’s my belief that many of the contributors on Cisnormativity are sockpuppet identities of the same person. Many of them sure write with the exact same style and language despite their varied histories, education levels, identities and backgrounds. Silly, cynical me. Is suggesting that “silencing?” So be it, but I’ve seen it happen way too many times.
Well, for your sake, Ginasf, it would be in your best interest to move along that social justice to such a point where it is safe for more of us to live openly than right now. Because only then you’ll be able to see with your own eyes all of the co-contributors on the Cisnormativity blog as quite (and wholly) distinct people of different shapes, sizes, ages, and experiences — not the Sifl ‘n’ Olly show.
Seriously. Do you think anyone here has time for that crap? (hint: the answer is unabashedly negative) Do you?
Yes, suggesting that is silencing. Air quotes and attempted feigned innocence aside, what you’re doing, GinaSF, is attempting to claim that you think people are sockpuppets based on a fairly loose and poorly-defined hunch.
But let’s put that aside for a moment and assume for the sake of argument that we are all sockpuppets. If that were the case, you’re still dismissing one voice of another trans woman based solely on that said voice is inconvenient to your ends, and that, oh no, this person is criticizing Dean Spade, who has a long and checkered history of speaking for (and thus over) people of color whilst claiming to “help” us, along with that he has done precious little for trans women in reality even though he talks a good game about us when he’s publishing. You also should keep in mind that he postures as the “founder” of SRLP when he’s really one person who, as part of a collective, helped create it and foster it in its early days.
Similarly, if we are all one person, that theoretical one person is calling out the “trans community” on its behavior that is riddled with -isms and -phobias. This behavior needs to change, and assuming once again that your ludicrous assertion is true that we’re all the same reason does not take away from the stark, plain fact that the “community” needs to knock those behaviors off ASAP.
So, GinaSF, why aren’t you focusing on any of the things we’re addressing and instead claiming we’re sockpuppets? Because it’s pretty damn clear you don’t want to address any of our needs for change and will ridicule and cut down those who demand better. The system is bent, and it needs to be fixed. You can be an obstruction all you want and sit there on the sidelines calling us names, but it’s not gonna change a damn thing, and it only makes you look like an obstinate, angry hater…which is, coincidentally, what your comments on here tend to show you to be.
So I want to mention here, that “tokenizing” isn’t always bad, as long as that person is always heard. Adding diversity to a group is almost always a positive step, for diversity’s sake. The problem with tokenizing is when it’s done in such a way that establishes that the “token” isn’t important. Like placing the only trans woman at an event speaking or performing before anyone arrives, etc.
Beyond “integration” there needs to be wider support of trans women. Not only do organizations, parties, rallies, clubs, and events need to make it clear trans women are welcome (something that things like “women and trans” do not sufficiently do, in fact we’ve learned that those tend to be code for NOT trans women), but they also need to reach out and actively recruit trans women.
I mentioned the other day, how ridiculously unlikely it would ever be to have a non-op trans woman as a go-go dancer at a dance event and not have her be shamelessly ignored or mocked. How ridiculously unlikely it would ever be for trans women included in fund raising “calendars.” How ridiculously unlikely it would be for trans women bartenders, or DJs, or performers, or poets, or artists to be prominently displayed and taken seriously in comparison to their CAFAB women or men counterparts.
And yes, sometimes diversity is it’s OWN qualification. If a trans woman isn’t quite as good a speaker, but has something to say, maybe she should be included because she gives a new lens, regardless if it means a more experienced CAFAB speaker.
Trans women are institutionally and systematically desexualized and ignored in queer and activist communities, and it’s going to take more than trans women to stand up. In fact, many of us don’t stand up simply BECAUSE of the harsh climate. Why the hell would I disclose and live openly in the queer women’s community when it would mean my exile?
Anyway. I see it’s a multiple point problem.
1. Discussion. We all need to talk, a LOT about this.
2. Diversity. Yes diversity for the sake of diversity is ok, especially when exclusion is the defacto issue. No one notices when an event is ALL CAFAB people, but if an event was all CAMAB people would be outraged! “Where are the trans guys? way to erase our experience!” That sounds really familiar to the way things work outside the queer community…
3. The Cotton Ceiling. It can only be broken down if we STOP desexualizing trans women and our diverse bodies. We all need to call out those who categorically deride certain genital configurations. We need to ask WHY trans women aren’t asked to take part in the “sexy” aspects of the queer community, and reach out. We’re sexy and beautiful women, and dammit it’d be nice to not be treated like the worst possible “thing” a cis woman could sleep with.
Lucian, I’m on my stupid iPhone and I accidentally hit ‘dislike’ on your comment when I meant to hit like!! Now I feel bad about it lol but at least you know it wasn’t intentional.. Sorry!
No worries!
The article was about critically analysing sexist behavior by trans men. That’s what I was doing. I wasn’t giving the mag a pat on the back because that’s not what this forum was for & there are plenty of other spaces where that is happening.
I’m not on some personal vendetta. In all earnesty, I think by naming problematic stuff we can get better at not doing it. We need to stop acting like political criticism is the worst thing that can happen to you because you’re a precious, fragile trans man who needs to be coddled with affirmation.
Ok, I agree with that.
To be honest, I reacted to your initial post – it had a really bratty tone and seemed inflammatory. And I guess I also reacted to it because it implies that whoever is involved in that project or any project at all, is under the impression that they are perfect and what they are doing is perfect. When I’m sure people don’t hold that position. And from personal experience, when people critique like this on other websites, I presume they have a whole of conversations separate to actually engaging with the people they are talking about. So then I wonder – why don’t you take up these issues with the mag project directly? Or have you? Or do you only speak to a smaller group of people in person and online to an audience in a completely separate space. I think there is a great loss in that. So much division.
>Ok – what I like to see is balance. Warren’s post was unbalanced.
First, this isn’t FOX News. Second, we aren’t walking a tightrope. Third, this isn’t a binary discussion.
>So It appeared to me that Warren was sore. About what? There are sometimes underlying personal issues (not about Warren personally) but between Warren and someone else for eg.
He spoke up to a citable, substantive example of what Jack was talking about. Warren expressed his own grievance about how it was handled, and speaking from a much closer vantage than most here might have. The grievance wasn’t a “personal issue”, and to frame it a “personal issue” means there’s some defensiveness with respect to that citation you should probably resolve within yourself first. Or with him.
>I think it doesn’t serve any purpose well to relay information so one sided?
It’s not one-sided. There are plenty of participants in this discussion. That there is a general consensus a reader can glean from it all? That’s still not “one-sided”, although it should offer a good guidepost as to what’s probably happening on a fairly widespread scale. It would be wise to read that guidepost for what it is.
>I think these issues are inherent in our communities having difficulty in coming to work together!
If by this you mean “tyranny of the majority (in a community organizing space)”, then you might have something. Learn the art of respecting plurality.
>I’m sure deep down people don’t want to see other people hurting.
And that’s why people tend to push away hurting people — out of mind, out of sight, so to believe that all’s right with the world. And when the hurt comes back in a cameo appearance, cue people sounding all mock-surprised and wondering how on earth that even happened.
>But it is about all of us learning how to deal with it well and to include everyone well.
If inclusion isn’t happening organically (or by default), then there’s a much bigger problem at hand.
I’m not suggesting that Warren distills down their opinions to a tabloid type format for easy reading. I’m saying that the post was entirely designed to incite a particular reaction without expansion or detail. The one post suggested to me that there was a whole lot going on there, and possibly personal opinions held of other people as well.
I also wrote more up above about why I think these conversations sometimes don’t hit the mark.
I said something critical about trans men. On a site pretty much designed for snark, trans feminist critique and political humor relief. Get over it.
snark – how productive. if everyone tries to change the world with snarky language, then we are all fucked.
furthermore… so that pretty much means we shouldn’t take this site seriously then right?
wait you don’t take anger seriously? or you don’t take political humour seriously?
i don’t respect snark.
While there’s some good stuff in here, almost this entire comment thread is utterly predictable. An article about trans men taking responsibility for their part in transmisogyny and sexism and taking up space within our communities to the detriment and exclusion of trans women etc essentially gets turned into a blame-fest about those excluded apparently not responding appropriately to it all. Fuck this nonsense.
Dudes: just stop taking up so much fucking space. It’s simple, really.
Dudes: more specifically, consider not taking up any more space talking about how dudes take up space, because all that ever seems to happen when you do it is that more dudes take up even more space. Women have been writing about this for a very long time, there are a ton of resources out there on this very subject. So it’s certainly not about disseminating any kind of new information, so what is it about? If you want (or if the net result is always a predictable) pat on the back for trying to not take up so much space and for addressing sexism, you’re doing it wrong.
>> So it’s certainly not about disseminating any kind of new
>> information, so what is it about? If you want (or if the net
>> result is always a predictable) pat on the back for trying to
>> not take up so much space and for addressing sexism, you’re
>> doing it wrong.
Despite the usual flame wars, I actually got some new perspectives from the women in this comment thread, that I’m going to keep in mind when I do event planning. I don’t really care if I get a gold star for fighting sexism, I’d just like trans women to feel good at the queer punk shows I throw, because they’re supposed to be for the whole community.
Apologies that my original comment turned into an epic predictable argument that now dominates the comments section. I’ve been totally uncomfortable about the irony of it all so I’m gonna shut up now.
yeh fellas. shut the fuck up! feminism is women’s business. keep out of it. let the women do all the work!
seriously.
I think you missed my point, but OK.
i was being sarcastic. it’s like people don’t want guys to be advocating feminist values. and when we do, we get told we are taking up too much space. can’t please anyone.
I basically don’t want to hear trans men call themselves feminists. I want to see trans men do applied feminism.
ok, so what about getting trans guys together to work as a support team for trans women. helping to organise trans women events, under their direction and needs, then stepping back entirely when the event happens, not even go?
seriously – trying to think of sometime helpful.
i think someone here suggested that.
something helpful**
As this thread has been going on, I’ve been pondering whether it would be useful for trans women & the queer community (or whether it would just turn into a familiar anti-trans-women shit-show), to have an in-person community dialogue consisting of all types of queer/trans people, about the topic of trans-misogyny & trans-women’s inclusion in the queer community, with a format sorta like:
[first 30 minutes] — only trans women / trans-feminine gq people are allowed to speak and everybody else just listens
[second 30 minutes] — break off into small discussion groups that the trans women organizers have already chosen
[third 30 minutes] — everybody can talk, a trans woman or two are facilitators
[final 15 minutes, recap] — only trans women / trans-feminine gq people are allowed to talk, again
[then everybody eats pie]
Just throwing that out there. I’d totally go and tell all my trans guy and cis homo guy friends to go practice shutting up and listening with me.
yeh, i’d support that and shut up. some action would be good.
Sounds like a more “open” version of No More Apologies.
Monica’s probably right that this would be something like an extension of the ‘no more apologies’ conversation. I think it’s a good idea.
I know you were. You still missed the point.
i find it very interesting that your experience with aydyns is identical to mine but your experience with trans women is the antithesis of mine. as a trans poc when i came out as a trans man the first group i attempted to get in with were trans women however much like the aydyns not all of trans women are the fountains of wisdom and privilege checking awesomeness you’re painting them as. the first of queer “radical” [mostly-white] trans women i tried to get in with were sweet and knew a lot of shortcuts to navigating transition but once i started presenting a bit more masc they were the first to inform me (via microaggressions no less) that no matter how queer i was my race and the attention it attracted would always make me “a problematic friend for a trans woman to have”.
all in all i love the dialogue you’re creating here but the education doesnt come from one side or a more educated or insurrectionist view it comes from every member of our community (even the aydins ugh) working together to make these ideas not so radical or obtuse and just common f-ing sense
Red Durkin and Lucian Kahn Discuss The Privilege of Being On The Internet
Lucian: I just thought you had read it because of your status update about “privilege because you’re on the internet” arguments
Red: nah, that’s an ongoing “peeve”
Lucian: oh wow. I didn’t know it was so widespread.
Red: I’m sure it came up in any flame war on pq
Red: yeah, I hear it all the time
Lucian: I don’t even think it makes sense beyond the obvious irony. Most public libraries can give you internet access.
Red: Claire did show me the comment about fancy language being a form of oppression
Red: that made me laugh
Lucian: hahahaha yeah
Red: it’s also just an attempt to dredge up the “voice” of the most under privileged person, because misfortune and setbacks are the currency of queer identity politics and its surrounding discourse
Red: but what do I know, I didn’t go to college
Lucian: then what are you doing on the internet????????
Red: Seriously, I don’t even know what the things I just said mean
Red: I’m here to play scrabble!
Lucian: better not use words like “panacea”
Lucian: I’ll call you out
Red: Are you sure you want to do that? I’m a poor, unemployed trans woman with no higher education and outstanding hospital loans.
Lucian: That’s true. That could really hurt my reputation.
Red: I rhetorically eat men like you for breakfast =)
Lucian: I’ve never been rhetorically eaten before, but I don’t think I like the way that sounds.
Red: me neither. Truce. (which is a word I know from vampire novels!)
Lucian: Hahahahaha. The imp of the perverse in me wishes to post this entire conversation at the bottom of that thread, with an animated .gif attached.
Red: I’m okay with that if you’re okay with demonstrating an esoteric understanding of mechanics of computers and by extension the internet. Lord Lucian, King of Privilege Town
You guys . . .
lol. yeh.
whoever suffers most, must be right.
love this.
people on the internet calling other people out for being on the internet while invoking the spectre of the poor trans women of colour… who of course could never be involved in such esoteric debates in this mysterious ivory tower called the internet
Jack, of course it’s not revolutionary or brilliant or super-insightful… but what it is is something you don’t hear a lot of guys, (or cis folk for that matter) saying.
You get an A because you’re being graded on one helluva curve.
Valerie, the “curve” made me lol a little, but only for like a second because it’s totally a real thing and that’s only funny in a sad/kinda depressing way.
It’s like finding a trans positive 50-year-old feminist… “Holy crap, it’s a shred of decent behavior where I’ve been taught not to expect it!”
And yeah, this is just the nature of things… we can strive to change it, but sometimes people suck at stuff as a group due to blindspots. Don’t get me started on my cismisandry.
Thank you so much for sharing this! I have been having a similar experience in my work as a trans masculine of center trying to check spaces of male privilege with knowledge that I primarily gained from my best friend who is trans feminine. She has taught me so much, and this essay really opened my eyes to how important it is to build community through including all members and not just appropriating their ideas, feelings, and experiences when it best suits our cause. Thank you, thank you, thank you =)
I know the feel, bro. It’s stressful (aww poor widdle baby me) to be a cis woman saying and writing these things and getting praise for it when I know I’m just recycling the same damn thing every trans lady in my life has been saying since the dawn of time. I wrote a fairly popular essay about Transmisogyny that was posted on a widely read blog (run by my friend) and the next thing I know, I’ve got reps from big deal LGBT sites asking if they can publish it on their sites. One rep even was like, “It would be the first thing we published that would concern the ‘T’!” Like that was supposed to make me feel good or proud or something? It just made me pissed. I was all, “Yo you can publish my shit AFTER you publish some shit written by trans women.” SHOCKINGLY I NEVER GOT A RESPONSE.
This is why I am never running a workshop/speaking at an event about these topics without my (trans) girlfriend ever again. Fuck this privileged voices noise.
GIVE ME ALL THE ALLY COOKIES I AM THE BEST CIS PERSON EVAR.
and i’m thinking “who is this Gus Allis because i think she totally wrote something fucking awesome” so then i google you and you turn out to be EVEN AWESOMER. so thanks for sayin’ this because this is how you *be* an ally rather than talk about being an ally.
they won’t let me hand out the ally cookies anymore, though. apparently i’m too stingy. whatever, man. seriously, thanks Gus, you rock.
I just came across an article you wrote last year (http://www.prettyqueer.com/2011/09/06/for-the-love-of-transmisandry/) with a lot of these same sentiments. I have to admit – I’m not a fan of A LOT of what I see happening within the trans community today. The ‘bro mentality’ is especially troubling to me. I don’t exactly fit with that crowd.
But I’m also not a fan of separatist attitudes criticizing other separatists while pretending not to be a separatist. See how that works? I talk about how much I dislike Group B because they are disrespectful and judgemental and they don’t include Group A and Group C. Nobody notices that I’m doing the very thing I’m criticizing – I’m disrespecting and judging Group B and expressing my desire to remain separate from it. A lot of times, we do this without even realizing it.
Now I’m not suggesting that we should simply accept everyone and everything they do and say. I’m actually pretty lonely because I DO value critical analysis, I believe it is very harmful (to all involved) to not challenge certain things, I believe we (people) can do better, I often ‘call it like I see it’, and I encourage people to look at the difficult issues and to DO something different. People apparently don’t often want to do the things that are really helpful and/or healthy… they’d rather do what is easy, popular, familiar, or otherwise ‘right’ to them. But I believe humanity can continue to evolve and improve – and that is why I’m encouraging you to examine your approach.
In the other article, you criticized ‘Aydyns’ for sharing about their fears of violence during TDOR because transmen are statistically less likely to be murdered. You later stated (in the comment section) that you had recently experienced the threat of violence and intense fear and that maybe you could have addressed the issue differently. I agreed and appreciated that comment. I hoped you would look at the other things you’d said and take a different approach in the future.
Reality is that ALL trans people struggle at some point. Not all struggle the same way, but all struggle. If we want to change the way certain segments of the community treat each other, I feel like we have a better shot by validating people than by rejecting them. Some transmen ARE afraid – and some have experienced horrific things. Their experiences are valid and we can’t really know who is being dramatic and who is genuine. Can we address the problems and eliminate the caste system without choosing sides? I think so!
What would happen if – instead of using so many words to talk about how much you disapprove of the ‘Aydyns’ – you wrote about the experiences you’ve had with (or that have been shared with you from) trans women? One of your main arguments is that this segment of the trans community is grossly underrepresented. As a writer, you have the opportunity to give some of them a voice.
By using that voice to share the stories of people who are often silent, you actively become the change you’d like to see. When silent citizens are given a voice, amazing things can happen – they begin to be part of a greater awareness (they are less invisible), they begin to be heard, they begin to be called upon to participate. It should already be that way but if it isn’t, we then get to choose between focusing on the bad situation or focusing on the solution.
It is clear to me that you passionately want to make the world a better place. I’m not in any way suggesting that you aren’t working hard to make that happen. I’m just challenging you to look at a different approach and consider giving it a try. As I said before – I’m not exactly Mr. Popular, so I know that my suggestions aren’t easy or widely accepted. Heck, they might not even be appropriate. I am, however, someone with a diverse history of experience and – more importantly – someone who genuinely wants to make a difference. I care about humanity and would like to see the hatred end.
I trust that you’ll take what you want and leave the rest behind. Best of luck in your future endeavors!
In reply to the callout for awesome trans women writing about trans-misogyny, please read the writing of Natalie Reed: http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/03/06/a-beginners-guide-to-trans-misogyny/
I also wrote a piece on my blog about how the queer community’s fetishization of trans men places them on a pedestal to the cost of trans and cis feminine queers: http://lipstickterrorist.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/queer-fetish-trans-men/
Peace out.
I forgot! I also edited a collective zine about the exclusion of trans and cis femininities from the queer community. Its contents mostly discuss the scene in Berlin, Germany, which very much puts trans men and trans masculinities in general on a pedestal, but I think a similar dynamic is happening in other ‘Western’ queer communities. The contents address the experiences of feminine-identified folk in the scene, mostly femmes and trans women, some fags and genderqueers. .
You can read or download it for free online here: http://dressedlikethatzine.blogspot.de/
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